Talk:Seleucid Empire

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Gah

This article is awful...I shall overhaul at some point. john k 14:34, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the note! I was going to use it for a presentation.... Ah the dangers of wiki. The lesbian 21:47, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've rewritten much of the article - unfortunately, I just discovered that there's a lot of overlap with Seleucid dynasty. Any thoughts on how to do this? john k 5 July 2005 04:22 (UTC)

Chaniotis 2006?

Cited twice but with no further information: anyone got any idea what it might be? This paper has the right author and date, but the wrong page numbers and, as far as I can see, subject matter. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 10:40, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed content

I fixed the preceded country link to the macedonia empire page. Unfriendly770 (talk) 16:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Native name?

Since a series of edits in 2015 [1][2][3] this article has shown an unsourced purported "native name" in Ancient Greek, "Βασιλεία τῶν Σελευκιδῶν". Was this name ever used and is there any sourcing for it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. The most detailed study of this issue is probably still Edson 1958 (https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/364260?journalCode=cp), who finds that ancient literary sources call the kingdom "imperium Macedonicum" ("Macedonian empire" - mainly Justin), "basilea hellenon" ("kingdom of the Greeks" - Jewish sources only), Asia (the only term that appears in a Seleucid inscription), and "Syria". Weirdly, he doesn't mention that Appian refers to ἡ δὲ ἀρχὴ τῶν Σελευκιδῶν ("the realm/empire of the Seleucids") three times in the Syriaca (246, 346, 368). He is the only ancient source to use the term "Seleucid". For my part, I don't believe that the kingdom had a consistent name. Furius (talk) 20:41, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that confirms my suspicion. Great to also have a source for it. I'll remove the name then. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In sources

Hello, NebY, thanks for looking at the sources and providing the exact quote on which the previous name was based on. I can now understand why Leopardus62 initially added "βασιλεύς τοῦ Συρίας", which I corrected to "τῆς Συρίας" instead. I guess, Leopardus is not familiar with ancient Greek grammar, but of course there's nothing wrong with that. Now that I see the quote, I can tell that the masculine article τοῦ (of) refers to the masculine noun: βασιλέως (of the king), and not to the feminine noun: Συρίας (of Syria).

The quote that you provided: "...Ἀλεξάνδρου τοῦ Συρίας βασιλέως" can support the wording: βασιλεύς Συρίας (basileus Syrias i.e "King of Syria") or in the reversed order as it is found in the quote: Συρίας βασιλεύς (Syrias basileus "of Syria the king") which in Greek makes sense too.

Also, where the source says "descended from Seleucus Nicator", I'm pretty sure it refers to the name: Σελευκίδαι (Seleukidai), from which the latinized and anglicised terms Seleucidae and Seleucids respectively derive. Also, I'm pretty sure that the term "King of Asia" would have been written in Greek sources as basileus Asias, althoug I'm not sure if these necessarily need to be added, without at least a source verifying them. Piccco (talk) 12:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Piccco, I see what you and NebY mean. I was a bit in a rush and didn't see the mistake initially, but I'm glad you both picked that up and fixed it. I also think that it is very important to include the Greek translation of "King of Syria" in the Name section as it is pretty much attested in epigraphy, and since it is also lacking in the introduction sentence, which previously had a Greek name for the Seleucid empire. Leopardus62 (talk) 12:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should not provide "Greek translations" of English phrases; if we were to provide any Greek, it should be the original Greek and fully supported by citations. I see no reason for us to provide a Greek original for that phrase and not the others, thus highlighting that one as if more common or significant. I do not see why it is important to include such phrases at all; they will be meaningless to the vast majority of our readers. Instead we provide sourced English translations. NebY (talk) 12:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should provide Greek translations and terms for some, specific words and phrases, as it is both relevant and interesting for readers, especially regarding the name of a kingdom or empire, or also that of the rulers where possible. I completely disagree. It is in fact a pretty common practice on Wikipedia and is used in other Hellenistic-themed articles. Furthermore, the Greek version of King of Syria is not original research, and is clearly attested in epigraphy as previously mentioned, and it is sourced. Also it is just an example of one designation for the rulers of the late Seleucid empire. Therefore its inclusion is completely justified.

Of course that's just your opinion, but I think it was better to have it in the article. If you can include a good substitute, then that would be sufficient too. Leopardus62 (talk) 13:46, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's okay, no worries. Regarding the transliterated names, having also in mind what NebY said about the undue weight, I believe that some, although not necessarily every single one of them, could bee included, as long as we can verify them. Piccco (talk) 12:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, an alternative for a term in the original language (if it can be verified in a source) could also be just a note, so that the section itself wouldn't clutter with translations and transliterations. Piccco (talk) 13:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our source would have been quite capable of saying merely "Seleucid" but was more specific. We really don't need to add the Greek for these terms. NebY (talk) 12:45, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, you're right. Btw, I believe that this section does have some potential for expansion, but as far as the current version is concerned, I also think that if a term is added, it should be verified, and some names might not necessarily need a translation either. Piccco (talk) 12:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]